Larry Snow
Former Huntley School Board member Larry Snow has done a prodigious amount of research about school districts where teachers pay nothing for their pensions.
Those employed in the private sector pay into Social Security. But they also pay the entire cost of teachers’ pensions in many, many Illinois school districts.
Snow asks the following question:
“How loud would teachers howl if
they had to pay for other peoples’ Social Security?” (emphasis in the original)
Entitled,
“Illinois is Proof “Investing in Education” is Democrat Lipstick on Legalized Looting,”
Snow’s piece is published in The Champion today.
The guts of his column is summarized below:
“Two thirds of all of the teachers in the worst and poorly performing school districts either don’t pay a penny, or pay very little for their pensions…
“This pattern of abuse by teachers and union officials in the worst school districts is clear.
“The chart shows how a third of all teachers in Illinois, all in the bottom half of lousy to poorly performing districts, pay next to nothing or literally zero for their luxury-benefit pensions.”
A major goal of teacher union collective bargaining is to shift the required employee payment from teachers' pockets to those of the taxpaying public.
His thesis is “teachers unions systematically drain education resources.”
He points to “work rules” as “a polite way of depicting work tourniquets. They are designed to limit the normal flow of instruction to students.”
Then, he moves on to health insurance premiums, challenging readers to
“Try finding a teachers contract in Illinois where the teacher is paying 15% of his or her own individual health care premium.”
He returns to pensions, pointing out,
“Illinois School Code says teachers are to pay 9.4 % of their salary into the state’s pension. The chart below shows what is actually happening. And this is just among the bottom half of school districts.”
Pension Contributions by Teachers in Some Bottom-Half-Performing School Districts
|
District |
ACT Score | % of
Pension Paid |
Number Teachers |
% with
Masters Degree |
AverageSalary / Yrs. Experience
|
| Cahokia | 16.0 | 0.4 % | 298 | 44 % | $ 66,098 / 12 |
| Thornton Twp 205 | 16.6 | Zero | 428 | 62 | 79,868 / 12 |
| Waukegan 60 | 16.8 | Zero | 1,098 | 54 | 55,749 / 11 |
| Morton 201 | 16.9 | Zero | 455 | 62 | 69,826 / 11 |
| Chicago | 17.3 | 2 % | 23,219 | 60 | 68,679 / 13 |
| Kankakee 111 | 17.5 | Zero | 348 | 65 | 60,671 / 15 |
| Joliet 204 | 18.0 | Zero | 340 | 65 | 68,553 / 12 |
| Round Lake 116 | 18.2 | Zero | 387 | 58 | 64,133 / 13 |
| Rockford | 18.4 | Zero | 1,843 | 70 | 66,771 / 15 |
| Decatur 61 | 18.4 | Zero | 454 | 33 | 50,332 / 12 |
| Peoria 150 | 18.4 | 0.4 % | 988 | 53 | 55,736 / 14 |
| Crete Monee | 18.4 | Zero | 340 | 42 | 58,350 / 10 |
| Danville 118 | 18.7 | Zero | 382 | 48 | 59,694 / 13 |
| Valley View 365 | 19.0 | Zero | 1,068 | 63 | 64,217 / 10 |
| Springfield | 19.1 | 0.4 % | 1,105 | 46 | 58,369 / 12 |
| Aurora West 129 | 19.1 | Zero | 706 | 76 | 77,089 / 13 |
| East Peoria 309 | 19.2 | Zero | 69 | 33 | 58,589 / 14 |
| Galesburg | 19.2 | Zero | 281 | 49 | 54,016 / 14 |
| Bremen 228 | 19.2 | Zero | 313 | 68 | $ 83,963 / 12 |
| Freeport | 19.4 | Zero | 317 | 45 | 50,802 / 12 |
| Elgin U-46 | 19.6 | Zero | 2,332 | 68 | 69,551 / 13 |
| Rock Island | 19.6 | Zero | 388 | 67 | 69,608 / 15 |
| Mattoon | 19.7 | Zero | 225 | 55 | 49,186 / 12 |
| Collinsville | 19.8 | Zero | 394 | 53 | 53,295 / 12 |
| Massac 1 | 19.9 | Zero | 143 | 33 | 46,065 / 12 |
| Sterling | 19.9 | Zero | 219 | 49 | 54,789 / 12 |
| Belvidere | 20.1 | Zero | 531 | 56 | 61,263 / 12 |
| Moline 40 | 20.3 | 0.4 % | 461 | 69 | 71,644 / 16 |
| Quincy | 20.4 | Zero | 436 | 54 | 47,161 / 14 |
| Harvard | 20.4 | 0.87 % | 149 | 56 | 52,859 / 12 |
| Dixon | 20.4 | Zero | 179 | 70 | 60,172 / 15 |
| West Chicago | Below
Average Elem. & Middle Schools |
Zero | 248 | 60 | 70,701 / 14 |
| Cook County 130 | Zero | 289 | 52 | 52,836 / 13 | |
| Dolton 148 | 1.4 % | 236 | 44 | 53,284 / 10 | |
| Cicero 99 | Zero | 738 | 42 | 59,086 / 10 | |
| Joliet 86 | Zero | 617 | 34 | 53,659 / 11 | |
| Total Teachers Above | 42,024 | $ 65,920 | |||
| Total Public School Teachers in Illinois | 132,502 | Salary Avg. Weighted for No. of Teachers | |||
|
Percent of Above Teachers to Total in Illinois |
32 % |
||||
Snow adds this local tidbit:
“Crystal Lake is served by two, above-average-performing districts, 155 and 47 with about a thousand (976) teachers. None contribute a penny for their pensions.
“You can add more districts such as this one to easily count over a third of all teachers in Illinois paying little to nothing.”
2/3 of the bottom half is a stunning statistic. The districts listed are all over the state. It’s over 40,000 teachers.
It exposes Democrats “invest in education” as a complete joke.
Republicans should take this and run with it to insist on real education reform in Illinois.
This chart amounts to a map of “here’s how and where you are being ripped off.” The State money from block grants to “help the kids” is being drained to pay for all of teachers’ pensions in so many districts.
So the “active TRS members are required to contribute 9.4 percent…” was just a bunch of fluff words intended to make the taxpayers think that’s what would actually be in force?
Where is the part in the booklet that says – however, the word “required” is easily gotten around by striking or threatening to strike if a district won’t assume that portion as well.
Can we sue the people who wrote the booklet?
So instead of looking at overall compensation, there is a focus on one element of compensation. One can only infer from the article that there is a correlation between how much of a teacher’s required pension contribution is “paid” by a district and ACT scores since that is the only performance measure included. With this extensive research, why not share these same statistics for the actual bottom third instead of hand picking the districts 2/3 of the bottom half? Why not share the same statistics for the forty “top” school districts? Wanna bet things would look a lot different?
Truth is that between picking up a dollar of pension vs paying a dollar of “salary” saves the district and the employer 1.45% each on that dollar for Medicare taxes. So, “picking up” the pension contributions as part of overall compensation is in fact fiscally responsible. It’s not the biggest windfall, but it saves money flat out.
Laird calling it “fiscally responsible” to pay 100% of teachers’ pension contributions is why people with common sense instinctively know they can’t trust what union supporters say.
They always have an excuse to take advantage of regular working people who they insist should pay for their pensions.
What a suprise that Laird’s wife was or still is a teacher union official.
Snow’s chart is compelling evidence that teachers and their unions are ripping off ordinary people who work in the private sector.
Laird: Once you show 2/3 of all teachers in the bottom half Snow has done a large representative snapshot of that bottom half.
I imagine many of the other districts in the bottom half have comparatively few teachers.
Your wife’s union likely has the data, so why don’t you show all of the rest of districts in the bottom half?
How is it taking advantage or ripping off anyone to request part of one’s compensation in a manner that reduces payroll taxes for the employer as well as the employee?
I suppose the existence of cafeteria plans for pretax benefit deductions in the public sector is taking advantage too although it’s really a sound practice in the private sector?
The equation goes like this for the pension – instead of paying me X dollars and both of us paying .0145X dollars in Medicare taxes, pay me .916X then we will both pay .0133X in Medicare taxes.
Wow people should really wear masks for that kind of thing.
As far as what information the union has, well I couldn’t tell you for sure.
However, I really doubt they have a bunch of half baked data that leaves hanging inferences without any discernible connection or relevance. Feel free to ask them if you want though.
Mike Laird serves us a load of hooey. He justifies the taxpayer picking up the entire tab for teachers retirement payment on the basis of SAVING MONEY, specifically, Medicare taxes.
Wow!
This is such a great idea, why don’t we do this in the private sector? I mean, who doesn’t to save money on taxes? Oh, wait. Could it that we do not allow the employer to pay both sides of the Social Security and Medicare taxes BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL?
So, perhaps Mr. Laird can, somehow, justify teachers taking a MORAL position that the rest of us cannot. You know, let’s AVOID taxes that would put a private sector employer in PRISON if he tried it.
Perhaps Mr. Laird can also explain why teachers are so, very, very special that the profession, that is supposed to be a role model for our children, can willfully violate the social compact between generations by shorting *MEDICARE* taxes that our seniors rely upon.
Oh yes, Mr. Laird advocates that teachers unions CHEAT senior citizens by avoiding taxes that the rest of us pay for health care for seniors.
Mr. Laird asks: “How is it taking advantage or ripping off anyone to request part of one’s compensation in a manner that reduces payroll taxes for the employer as well as the employee?” Because these taxes go to social security checks for the elderly and their medical care. Why should teachers be exempt from carrying the same social burden for caring for the elderly that the rest of us do. Especially since both programs are already underfunded an in danger of going broke.
Is Mr. Laird prepared to accept that his unions are SLACKERS, then? Not doing their fair share? Hey, if you want to pay less in payroll taxes, HOW ABOUT EARNING LESS and lowering your salary demands? That works for this taxpayer.
School districts have payrolls in the tens of millions. Teachers have a minimum career of 30 years (assuming retirement at 55). By allowing teachers to short change FICA, we’re talking about a whole big pile of money! A whole big pile of money that YOU TEACHERS DON’T PAY, but that we do.
Rather selfish of the unions, don’t you think. Oh, wait, old Sam Gompers himself said that unions always want “more” – and that’s a direct quote. So I guess it is rather selfish, isn’t it – and just one example of how teachers unions screw the public.
On the subject of teachers being roll models, perhaps Mr. Laird would like to justify the behavior of teacher union members (no doubt under orders from union officers) who invaded legislative offices in Tennessee in order to disrupt their proceeding on a bill to end collective bargaining.
Perhaps Mr. Laird can convince us that throwing a TANTRUM by so-called “professional” employees (every one of which is college educated and who ought to know better) makes TEACHERS a role model for our children.
It’s not just Madison, WI. See the video from Knoxville at http://blogs.knoxnews.com/humphrey/2011/03/state-troopers-carry-union-pro.html
7 teachers union members had to be forcibly removed and were arrested with misdemeanor disorderly conduct charges and some of them with resisting arrest. If I were in charge, those 7 teaches would have their teachers certificates pulled by the state for misconduct, their union would be barred from the state capitol, and union officials fined.
Good thing for the friends of Mr. Laird that I’m not in charge.
Anyone who legally saves taxes is inherently evil? Let me know how far that argument gets you. In your version of the world anyone who uses pretax contributions for insurance or deducts mortgage interest must also be shortchanging everyone because they could be paying more taxes, but choose to properly not pay more than they are required.
So now all protesters are also evil. In addition, anyone who disagrees with j should just keep it to themselves.
Dear Laird, Taking huge amounts of other people’s money to say that a trickle of it is saved, is still grabbing huge amounts of other people’s money.
Teachers have become selfishly greedy to not be not paying anything into their pensions, when everyone else has to pay into Social Security, except teachers.
Until Snow has made this public, the teachers and unions have kept the enormity of their money grab a filthy, immoral secret.
Dear Laird, the tax law Democrats voted in already gives teachers special no tax treatment on money they should be paying into for their pensions.’
There’s no federal or state income tax on this money, unlike regular people who have to pay income tax on the money that gets deducted for Social Security.
Teachers shouldn’t be getting a special tax break that construction, retail workers and school bus drivers, for example, don’t. It is selfish greed that union factory workers have to pay these taxes but teachers don’t.
Actually, the tax treatment goes back through both parties’ control of Congress and the White House, but nice try. In fact, it is not just teachers or administrators, also a nice try. If you want to make libelous accusations and insinuations, please at least make an attempt to base them on accurate information.
How does structuring compensation in a way that costs less (although very slightly less) constitute a money grab? You keep repeating essentially the same thing over and over. However, You have yet to suggest what should be changed or demonstrate how anyone would benefit.
I actually appreciate Mr. Snow bringing the information forward. People should understand how their governments work. This has actually provided a great opportunity to combat much of the inaccurate drivel and blather bandied about. I hope having more accurate information has benefitted You.
Ooh! Ooh! Mr. Laird builds a straw man!
“So now all protesters are also evil. In addition, anyone who disagrees with j should just keep it to themselves.”
If you and your union teachers buds try to take over a government hearing. If you refuse to leave when told, requiring the police to haul your fat union butts off to jail, it’s not protesting, it called LAW BREAKING.
There is protest. Then there is RESISTING ARREST and DISORDERLY CONDUCT. But thanks for proving, once again, that UNIONS “R” THUGS. Tell me, do your rent-a-mob union thugs wear purple shirts (“purple people beaters”) or brown shirts?
How dare you justify mob violence to further the union agenda!
Dear Laird, what must frost you, is the information is accurate as written. Liberals always begin smearing with “libelous” and “inaccuarte” as soon as they read what is an accurate but factually show how greedy the teacher majority really is.
Snow’s article was about teachers and their unions. What’s next? Your pretending Democrats didn’t exempt unions from anti-trust laws? It was in 1935, if you want to look it up.
How many of the last years have Democrats controlled Springfield?
From wikipedia – “A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position….” Hmmm kinda like insinuating that I am in some manner affiliated with any of the people mentioned above in other states or unions in general or for that matter anyone other than my wife. I usually acknowledge affiliation with her, my kids too. Oh and my siblings and parents as well. Thanks for bringing up the concept of argumentative fallacies. Here is a link listing quite a few in case you inadvertently missed using one on the list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Mob violence? Really? I can see clearly from the images of people clinging to each other and fixtures that lives were in danger. They were so dangerous in fact that no riot gear or other protective equipment was worn by the troopers in any of the pictures I can find. I make no statement for or against what they did, but I find your characterization of “mob violence” (again your words not mine) to be laughable. Or maybe it’s not funny because I find it a little scary that you actually might believe some of the more ridiculous things that you write.
So I have to ask – are all protesters who engage in peaceful civil disobedience thugs (your word, not mine) or is it just the ones with whom you disagree?
Who is Laird?
How did Larry Snow determine the teachers in the districts listed pay zero instead of the 9.4% teacher contribution?
I can’t find any such clause in the collective bargaining agreement in our school district, Wheaton Warrenville CUSD 200. http://www.CUSD200.org.
In CUSD200 is the teachers gross pay just inflated 9.4%?
You – from the list above, this is known as the red herring fallacy. I ask what You suggest changing and what You would expect to improve as a result. In response, you state that the figures in the table are accurate. I made no claim to the contrary. My assertions of inaccuracies were with respect to the false and inaccurate claims about tax issues. I am not aware of any errors in the table although it is worth mentioning that Mr. Snow’s figures appear to include the “picked up” pension contributions. So, those contributions are not on top the figures in the table. I don’t believe that is clear as the column is labeled as “Average Salary”.
Of the last 17 years, the IL House has been Dem for all but two years. The Governor’s office and Senate have been Dem 8 years in that same period. It should be noted that neither the tax laws nor anti trust laws mentioned above fall under the auspices of the IL General Assembly. So, I fail to see why you asked that question. However, You may also want to know that it was a Republican governor who signed the IELRA giving collective bargaining rights to educational employees.
Dear Laird, if you read the article and use a tiny bit of reading comprehension you would see …
“The teacher salaries shown in the below chart are from each individual school district’s 2010 Report Card. As are the years of teaching experience and percentage of teachers with a Masters Degree.”
That’s about as clear as someone can show what’s in the columns. But at least you tried smearing the data.
Does your wife still do work for a teachers union?
Union supporter Laird defends thugs who disrupt government functions. How convenient. How self serving. And it’s hogwash.
From: http://blogs.knoxnews.com/humphrey/2011/03/state-troopers-carry-union-pro.html
“Troopers forcibly carried out seven union supporters from the Tennessee’s legislative office complex on Tuesday after their protest disrupted a Senate committee hearing.”
“The seven arrested were among those who stood up during the hearing and began chants about “union busting” by the Legislature.”
The Constitution guarantees the right to petition for grievances and to PEACEABLY assemble. These people were NOT peaceable. Screaming and shouting and disrupting a committee meeting “when they didn’t hear what they wanted to hear” and refusing to disburse is not “peaceful civil disobedience,” but mob violence. And is not protected under the Constitution.
Claiming the mantle of Mohandas Gandhi or Henry David Thoreau to justify the deliberate disruption of government is nonsense.
Watch the video at http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14252681/7-arrested-after-disrupting-senate-committee-hearing
Gandhi’s rules for civil disobedience: “they were to express no anger, never retaliate, submit to the opponent’s orders and assaults, submit to arrest by the authorities, surrender personal property when confiscated by the authorities but refuse to surrender property held in trust, refrain from swearing and insults (which are contrary to ahimsa), refrain from saluting the Union flag, and protect officials from insults and assaults even at the risk of the resister’s own life.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience
Thoreau’s version of civil disobedience was to refuse to pay taxes.
Martin Luther King’s version of civil disobedience was aimed at striking down laws that violated the constitutional rights of blacks.
“Collective bargaining” is not a right guaranteed in the Constitution but a statutory privilege granted via legislation. Legislation can also terminate the privilege.
This was not a peaceable petitioning for redress of grievances but an attempt to mau-mau legislators from performing their job. Elections have consequences. The fact is that unions are trying to overthrow a democratic election that their side lost. Civilized people do NOT act like storm troopers. Civilized people build consensus for their view and use *elections* to reach their goals
The fact that you defend mob action put you on the side of the barbarians and thugs. So typical of union supporters.
While I read the word “salary” as You do, what you either fail to understand or fail to acknowledge is that the number is actually what is referred to as creditable earnings. This number reflects the sum of what you consider to be salary plus all but .6% of what you consider to be employer paid pension. I do not think that is clear to anyone who isn’t familiar with how it works.
Those number include what You consider to be employer paid pension contributions. So, what data did I try to smear?
Mark-
He looked at the districts’ contracts.
Snow’s article points out that by Illinois law, the teachers contracts are required to be posted online. From this I would conclude he examined each one listed and saw the teachers’ contributions in the contracts and then created a chart with the results.
I found the one for McHenry High School District in a clause entitled, “Retirement.”
Dear Laird, I looked at a 2010 Report Card and it looks like you are trying to misinform people about “salaries” being creditable earnings.
The Report Card describes them as salaries and makes no mention of creditable earnings.
It seems obvious the State Board of Education would say on the official Report Cards that salary is more than salary if that’s what the numbers are. It looks like you are into misleading people on behalf of your union wife’s interests to drain as much money from taxpayers as she can.
To Aileen 03/15/2011 at 11:49 am
Are you serious???? Sue???? I am not surprised by the notion that you would sue someone as your friends seem to do that ALL THE TIME.
j, I must have missed the part about malatov cocktails or where they took any threatening action at all. Can you point to where they did anything but hold on to objects or each other? While you are at it, please point me to a definition of violence that includes remaining stationary. I was unable to find that either.
j, you must have missed where I made it clear that I didn’t have anything to say for or against them. The characterization of mob violence is still ridiculous. Hopefully, the repetition helps. If you need a few more iterations, let me know. I am here to help whenever you need me.
I am glad though that you were able to make use of my link to come up with additional absurd comments about me and others.
You – I apologize for your insistence on remaining ignorant despite being presented with the opportunity to be enlightened.
You can confirm it by using the database associated with the website for which Mr. Snow has been writing. Download Cahokia 187, Open it in Excel, sort out administrators, average the “salaries” of the teachers. It will be within a couple hundred dollars of the report card #’s. You can see the superintendent too. That individual can be compared to the certified admin report on the district’s website, by adding Salary and TRS/THIS listed. There is a few hundred dollar difference, but it should be close enough to be clear what numbers are represented..
I would do it for you, but you would just claim I was manipulating the data. : )
Laird, riding his stalking horse, says “I must have missed the part about malatov cocktails.”
“Can you point to where they did anything but hold on to objects or each other?”
“While you are at it, please point me to a definition of violence that includes remaining stationary.”
Don’t you ever get tired of using the ignoratio elenchi fallacy?
Try reading this paragraph again:
This was not a peaceable petitioning for redress of grievances but an attempt to mau-mau legislators from performing their job. Elections have consequences. The fact is that unions are trying to overthrow a democratic election that their side lost. Civilized people do NOT act like storm troopers. Civilized people build consensus for their view and use *elections* to reach their goals.
Let’s see now:
Death threats sent to Republicans in Wisconsin.
Vandalism down to a WI bank suspected of donating to Walker. Turns out they didn’t.
Vandalism done to a local Milwaukee grocery chain.
THREATS made to local Wisconsin businesses that unless they show support for unions, they will face a boycott – an illegal secondary boycott, BTW.
Trespassing the private property of REPUBLICAN WI legislators.
Doing thousands of dollars of damage to the Wisconsin capitol, total cost yet to be determined.
Ruining the lawn outside the WI state capitol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDu_dBeZfKk&feature=player_embedded
The previously noted incident in Knoxville,TN
Maybe, instead of not “anything to say for or against them” you ought to take the side of civility and condemn your wife’s brothers and sisters “in-arms.”
So j, you clearly now concede that the Knoxville incident (the only reference you make to mob violence) was in fact a peaceful sit in as the only non-peaceful examples you provided were with respect to Wisconsin. Am I right? If you can’t keep up with the whole conversation, please at least pay attention to what you write about which topic.
Now if you want to move onto Wisconsin, I am happy to do so.
– The threats against those legislators and their families no less are absolutely intolerable. The individuals responsible should be prosecuted.
– Vandalism is also unacceptable and should be prosecuted although I am sure you will agree it is not quite on the same level as the threat of death.
– I couldn’t find anything on the trespassing, so I don’t know if it means someone stepped on a lawn and then off again ten seconds or if it is a real issue. Please feel free to point me to the information.
– Finally you make the claim that the secondary boycott is illegal, but I couldn’t find enough information to even guess whether it qualifies for the exemption. However, if it is illegal the Feds can enjoin them from continuing it or the aggrieved parties can file suit to end it. Again if you have a source of information that would support your claim, I would appreciate a heads up.
Ignoratio elenchi, you should look it up.
“you clearly now concede that the Knoxville incident (the only reference you make to mob violence) was in fact a peaceful sit in.”
I do no such thing. It was not peaceful. It was not a “sit in,” it was disorderly conduct and resisting arrest. It was criminal behavior committed by union operatives. Man up and admit it.
Those who support unions have a problem. What is the image the unions are trying to project? Because the one they are projecting is tantrum throwing thuggery.
Another example, one of an increasingly longer list of thuggery:
“After the vote on Senate Bill 5, seven Republican senators, including President Tom Niehaus, R-New Richmond, grabbed dinner at the Easy Street Cafe. As the lawmakers neared the end of their meal, a group of five to 10 union supporters angry about the passage of the bill hours before burst into the restaurant and began shouting. The commotion eventually led to pushing and shoving with the restaurant staff and owner,…,”
“When the group burst into the restaurant, the woman, Monica Moran, deputy director of public affairs for SEIU District 1199, raised her hands in the air, yelled “Can I have your attention?” and then shouted “something nasty,” LaRose said. Soon after, the rest of the group of men and women joined in with a chant.””
“”They stormed through my dining room,” said George Stefanidis, owner of the Easy Street Cafe. “I told them they had to leave, and they wouldn’t.””
http://www.dispatchpolitics.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/03/04/copy/senate-bill-5-drama-spills-into-restaurant.html?adsec=politics&sid=101
Hmm. Wisconsin. Tennessee legislature. Ohio. The pattern of union behavior is pretty clear.
Thuggery.
Look for the union label, and you’ll find a thug.
More examples of union thuggery.
Wisconsin.
http://blog.eyeblast.tv/2011/03/union-thugs-destroy-recall-petitions/
“This video was shot minutes after a union advocate destroyed several petitions at a recall Jim Holperin Rally in Merill, WI. The event was moved to the court house grounds because the private location originally slated to host the event was threatened with arson. It should be noted that police were present when the protestor destroyed these recall petitions, but stated to us that there was nothing they could do about it. The female protestor, who had a young child with her, approached the recall table pretending to be interested in signing the petition, then proceeded to write F— You! She then ripped up other completed petitions before being stopped. Her actions were met with great approval from the rest of the crowd, who took up the chant heard in the video.”
video at http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=hdaG8zprkU
Another example. Ohio, again
http://blog.eyeblast.tv/2011/03/video-union-thugs-harass-conservative-kids-and-try-to-steal-their-phones/
“Let me set up what is happening in this clip. Basically, according to Jackohoft, a group of conservative college kids attended a union protest in Ohio on Tuesday. Some of the union supports took issue with them being there and began harassing them. This is evident in the beginning of the video as a college student (in a blue t-shirt) is surrounded by union supporters who are berating him.”
Video at http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/checker.aspx?v=hdaGnzIr4z
The videos, as documentation of union behavior, speak for themselves.
J, you used mob violence with respect to Knoxville. So, did anyone in the Knoxville do anything but sit there clinging to fixtures or other protestors? Repeating the charges doesn’t change what they did. Are you able to identify even one example from the incident of anything that remotely resembles violence?
More union thuggery, Washington, DC
“Sundry labor and leftwing activists marched through downtown Washington, D.C., this evening, blocking main streets right in the heart of the evening commute. There were a few hand-drawn signs expressing solidarity with union employees in Wisconsin, many professional signs from the Amalgamated Transit Union, and some posters from the Socialist Workers Party.”
http://shopfloor.org/2011/03/union-solidarity-involves-jamming-d-c-traffic-during-rush-hour/18846
“A few hundred protesters sought to make the GOP Representatives feel like they were back in the occupied Capitol building by taking over the atrium of the Homer Building where BGR LLC is headquartered. Video on Facebook. Our friends at First-Draft report that after 13th Street began to overflow the protesters began marching toward the White House. Here’s video of the march. ”
http://www.dane101.com/current/2011/03/16/dc_protesters_help_wisconsin_gop_feel_at_home_by_occupying_atrium_of_the_homer_bu
“What appear to be more than 1,000 pro-union protesters from around the Washington region have converged on 601 13th St. NW, trapping inside attendees of a Wisconsin Republican Party fundraiser.
Public-sector unions have angrily objected to the bill signed this week by Gov. Scott Walker, who last week signed a bill stripping Wisconsin workers of some benefits and their collective bargaining rights. The fundraising event for Wisconsin Republicans is being hosted by lobbying firm BRG Group, according to the National Journal.”
Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/capital-land/2011/03/wisconsin-governor-holed-13th-st-union-protestors##ixzz1GrrPkZog
The videos speaks for itself: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150443602565397¬if_t=video_processed
http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/capital-land/2011/03/wisconsin-governor-holed-13th-st-union-protestors##ixzz1GrLlJyds
Fox news was there when the union thugs stormed the building, which is PRIVATE PROPERTY.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/on-the-record/index.html
Union thuggery, Lansing Michigan:
“Michigan State Police Capt. Gary Nix says troopers arrested 11 people Wednesday night during protests at the state Capitol.
All who were arrested will be charged with trespassing, and one faces a felony charge of obstructing a police officer. Nix said the details of the felony case were not completely clear but revolved around that person opening a bathroom window on the ground floor of the Capitol in a move to allow other protesters in….
.,,The arrests came at the end of a day that saw thousands of protesters on the Capitol lawn as well as in the building protesting 40 bills which activists say unfairly target labor”
http://michiganmessenger.com/47451/11-arrested-in-capitol-protests
Mob action in WI, MI, OH, KY, DC. Instigated by and under the direction the unions. The more the government unions engage in mob action, the more America sees what unions really are.
j says:
03/17/2011 at 10:21 am
I see lots of people in DC. The application of the word mob might not be objectionable as a disorderly group of people. Crowds that big don’t tend to be orderly by nature.
Thuggery on the other hand doesn’t seem to apply to a large group of people standing around holding signs. I believe the term is picketing. Trespassing might be fair. I don’t know if the Homer building is normally open to the public. I didn’t see any police ushering protesters out though. So, maybe they were on the way? Blocking traffic, well that’s just not safe if there are emergency vehicles that need to pass. I really wish they would be more conscientious about things like that.
Lansing seems to be more of the same kind of non-violent, peaceful sit in type protesting as Knoxville.
So, we have established that there are crowds or throngs of people holding signs, arguably mobs as they were not in neat formations. Yet we haven’t seen one thuggish or borderline line violent act out of Knoxville, Lansing or DC. It is very thoughtful of you to provide a balanced perspective and to provide non-violent examples to show a more complete picture. I am glad that you are willing to show that the few radicals in WI who normally get the headlines are not representative of the larger group of decent hardworking people trying to protect their legal (albeit not consitutional) rights.
“I am glad that you are willing to show that the few radicals in WI who normally get the headlines are not representative of the larger group of decent hardworking people trying to protect their legal (albeit not consitutional) rights.”
ROTLMAO!!
“[T]he few radicals in WI” include James L. Palmer, Executive Director, Wisconsin Professional Police Association, Mahlon Mitchell,President, Professional Professional Fire Fighters, Jim Conway, President, International Association of Fire Fighters Local 311, John Matthews, Execuctive Director, Madison Teachers, Inc., Keith Patt, Executive Director
Green Bay Education Association, Bob Richardson, President, Dane County Deputy Sheriffs Association, Dan Frei, President, Madison Professional Police Officers Association.
Here’s the online image of letter they wrote: http://www.thewheelerreport.com/releases/March11/0310/0310wppa.pdf
It reads in part:
“The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor Walker’s efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.
In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining, please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the goods and services provided by your company.”
Let me translate this letter for you: DO WHAT WE WANT – OR ELSE!! And it isn’t signed by some nobodies, but by the president of UNIONS.
Oh, and the deadline was today.
Did you know that the GOP DC HQ had it’s windows shot? http://dcist.com/2011/03/dc_republican_party_hq_windows_shot.php#photo-2
Now you can equivocate (that’s a grown up word for “LIE”) all you want, but America’s public employee unions are acting like the thugs they are. From union head to worker bee and teachers, unions are thugs.
“LA CROSSE, Wis. (WTAQ) – Wisconsin Senate Republican Dan Kapanke has called off public meetings in his La Crosse area district, after his property was vandalized and had death threats. His chief of staff Rose Smyrski tells the La Crosse Tribune that Kapanke’s car window was broken in Madison. And nails were scattered in the driveway of his house on La Crosse’s French Island.” http://wtaq.com/news/articles/2011/mar/17/lawmaker-calls-meetings-over-vandalism-death-threa/
Unions are thugs!
j says:
03/17/2011 at 8:47 pm
“Unions are thugs!”
Something is not adding up in your equation. We have established that the handful of death threats should be prosecuted. We have also agreed that the handful of vandalism cases are also unacceptable and need to be prosecuted. We are on the same page up to that point. I have argued that the majority of the peaceful assemblies and sit ins are not thuggish. You seem to disagree, but have yet to point to anything contradictory. Still, that is only another handful of incidents. You also point to a boycott that you have asserted as illegal, but not shown any evidence.
Now according to BLS, there are 17 million union members in the US. Your equation would yield 17 million thugs. Now how do 17 million of any group of thugs produce only maybe a dozen or so incidents of non peaceful acts nationwide? Could it be explained by a handful of radicals making death threats and a handful of radicals doing other stupid though non lethal things? Or do you want to stick with 17 million thugs?
Be sure to wax your slippery slope.
My apologies, that should read 14 million.
“One person arrested at Wednesday’s protests at the Capitol was armed with a weapon and faces felony charges, Michigan State Police said.
State Police troopers arrested 14 people during a rowdy protest of Gov. Rick Snyder’s budget bills. One of them was a man who allegedly broke into the Capitol through a window and assaulted officers, state police said. The man was armed with a sharp-edged weapon, state police said.”
http://detnews.com/article/20110317/POLITICS02/103170445/Capitol-protester-found-armed-with-weapon#ixzz1Gt27o8i7
Unions are thugs
James L. Palmer, Executive Director, Wisconsin Professional Police Association, Mahlon Mitchell,President, Professional Professional Fire Fighters, Jim Conway, President, International Association of Fire Fighters Local 311, John Matthews, Execuctive Director, Madison Teachers, Inc., Keith Patt, Executive Director
Green Bay Education Association, Bob Richardson, President, Dane County Deputy Sheriffs Association, Dan Frei, President, Madison Professional Police Officers Association.
Presidents of Wisconsin unions who are THREATENING illegal boycotts if businesses don’t display the AFLCIO “clenched fist.” The union rank and file do what they are told. The vandalism, the threats come from the top.
“We like to say: We use the power of persuasion first. If it doesn’t work, we try the persuasion of power.” Andy Stern, Former president of the “Purple People Beaters” aka, SEIU. The unions can stop the violence, the threats, and the mobs with one word. They choose not to.
Do you know how the NRA gets their way, Laird?
The members of the NRA don’t storm state capitols.They don’t take over offices. They don’t send death threats. They don’t vandalize people’s property, especially state capitol buildings. They don’t break into closed or locked government buildings. They don’t have physical confrontations.
The members of the NRA write letters. They find out where their elected officials stand on the 2nd Amendment. They VOTE ACCORDINGLY. And they win, so badly do they win, that they are the most feared lobby in DC.
Unions only know thug ways. That’s their history. And it’s still their M.O.
I believe this is part of how the NRA accomplishes it’s agenda.
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/may/08/nra-lobbyists-visit-persuaded-9-to-flip-votes/
If you read your own post – ““One person arrested at Wednesday’s protests at the Capitol was armed with a weapon and faces felony charges, Michigan State Police said.” Was he or she the only one there or does this represent an infinitesimal proportion of the people involved? I read 3,000 people. Do I misunderstand that?
Does the NRA use mob action the way the unions do, as in take over state capitol? Ans: No.
Does the NRA send threats to businessmen the way the unions do? No.
Does the NRA vandalize businesses that are not pro-NRA? No.
Does the NRA beat up opponents like the purple people beaters did Ken Gladney in St Louis? No.
Are YOU going to tell me that unions don’t have lobbyists?
How many in the union leadership are felons? 10%, 50%?
FACT: Richard Trumka and his knuckle-dragging mine workers local were sued for instigating the murder of a “scab.” They couldn’t identify the shooter. The “scab’s” family received a $17 million settlement once Trumka was ordered by the court to turn over all messages and internal documents. Yet, despite (or maybe because) of this incident Trumka is the president of the AFLCIO.
FACT: UNION GOONS BRING ILLEGAL WEAPONS WHEN THEY TAKE OVER A STATE HOUSE, AND THEY THREATEN THE POLICE WITH THEM.
You a member of a union, Laird?
Your union friends ought to give up violence – or as you like to deceptively call them, “peaceful sit-ins,” – and do things the way the NRA does. WITH ELECTIONS.
I know they won’t. Because unions are RICO-oriented organizations that know no better. The fact that SDS Terrorists like Andy Stern, and murder-instigators like Trumka rise to the top of the union hierarchy. And if THEY are the cream, what does make there rest of the membership?
Stop being knuckle-dragging, knife-carrying, toughs and thugs and you’ll find that unions will better serve their members.
“j says:
03/18/2011 at 3:32 pm
Stop being knuckle-dragging, knife-carrying, toughs and thugs and you’ll find that unions will better serve their members.”
So should they carry a concealed gun to school like this NRA member college student?
http://alawabidingcitizen.blogspot.com/2011/03/nra-member-arrested-for-loaded-handgun.html
Took a whopping thirty seconds to come up with this one from two weeks ago. I think there are a few million NRA members. Does that make them all violent criminals with no regard for safe schools or guilty of some other broad based moronic accusation such as you have tossed around in nearly every post?
I wouldn’t think so and don’t think most folks would think so, but by the way you have presented your argument at every turn – the individual is the group. There must be some top down NRA agenda that includes guns on college campuses, right? People don’t think for themselves or not think as the case may be, right? If one or a few of a group is criminal or wrong minded, all are, right?
Or maybe a few bad apples do not an orchard spoil?
Btw, as far bad mouthing people with bad logic, you have made a wise choice by railing against the group whose laser pointer would be aimed at a dry erase board or overhead screen rather than well…
You pointed out a goofball, someone on vallium, who behavied illegally. Hopefully his next mailing address will be a penitentiary.
I pointed out an illegal corporate action of SEIU against a company (Sodexo USA).
One is an individual. The other is a corporate decision of union management.
I am saying that the decisions to storm capitol buildings, to “get in Republican’s faces,” to threaten businesses to support the union, or else (“nice business ya got here, hate to see you boycotted), is a decision that comes from the union leadership.
Do you see the difference?
I certainly do not believe that the same identical behavior (storming buildings), vandalizing, making threats, is the simultaneous, spontaneous ideas of union members acting independently of union leadership..
There is a message of mine missing that identifies a company that is suing SEIU for RICO
“Sodexo USA today filed a civil lawsuit against the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and other defendants under the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act, to stop the illegal campaign of extortion that the SEIU has been waging in the U.S. for over a year….
…Sodexo USA has filed the lawsuit seeking to halt the SEIU’s extortionate threats and barrage of unlawful tactics. The complaint alleges acts of SEIU blackmail, vandalism, trespass, harassment, and lobbying law violations designed to steer business away from Sodexo USA and harm the company.”
I can’t get the message to display and there is not an indication it is awaiting moderation.
Onw goofball, huh? So the few do not represent the many….? Now where did I see that written…?
Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that the boycott (non-violent btw) is illegal and not subject to the exception? Is the mere filing of a lawsuit your only evidence? If so, do you also believe that spilling one’s coffee on oneself while driving entitles one to millions of follars from a fast food chain?
So far the only organized behavior to which you point is the the non violent, non thuggish kind.
Laird, you can lie all you want, You can call CLEARLY VIOLENT takeovers of buildings (breaking windows, using handcuffs to lock doors, pushing and shoving, screaming and shouting, using horns, refusing to disperse, resisting arrest, as “non-violent” and “non-thugish” – and you can do so till the cows come home. It’s still a lie, because the behavior is still violent and still thuggish.
“Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that the boycott (non-violent btw) is illegal and not subject to the exception?” Secondary boycotts are illegal under the National Labor Relations Act as modified by Taft-Hartley, as I am sure you already know. The threat of a boycott is sufficient.
The Sodexo USA RICO suit is an example of how UNIONS do business:
From the Sodexo USA press release about the Sodexo suit, I’m not going to waste my time and dollars looking it up on the court’s PACER system:
“The complaint alleges acts of SEIU blackmail, vandalism, trespass, harassment, and lobbying law violations designed to steer business away from Sodexo USA and harm the company.”
“The complaint alleges that the SEIU, in face to face meetings, threatened Sodexo USA’s executives that it would harm Sodexo USA’s business unless they gave in to the union, and then carried out its threats through egregious behavior, including:
* throwing plastic roaches onto food being served by Sodexo USA at a high profile event;
* scaring hospital patients by insinuating that Sodexo USA food contained bugs, rat droppings, mold and flies;
* lying to interfere with Sodexo USA business and sneaking into elementary schools to avoid security;
* violating lobbying laws to steer business away from Sodexo USA, even at the risk of costing Sodexo USA employees their jobs; and”
* harassing Sodexo USA employees by threatening to accuse them of wrongdoing.”
No doubt you applaud the behavior of the SEIU – as you applaud the PROGRAMMED and ORGANIZED violence in Madison, Knoxville, Lansing and DC. You are a union apologist and a propagandist. Nationwide, government unions are going down. I’m going to enjoy the unions, led by Richard Trumka (with his Adolph haircut and mustache) go down.